Esiste una dieta per perdere massa grassa e acquisire muscoli?

Street · 23-01-2014, 06:12 PM

Se ti alleni alle 7 sulla carta,a me che sono ignorante,sembra una forzatura
Ma dato che Berkhan sul sito propone quello schema con tanto di motivazione,io mi fiderei a occhi chiusi

Riporto lo schema di cui si parla (con relativo spiegone) perchè magari questo 3d potrebbe servire a qualcun altro in futuro

"My general position on the fasted phase is that it should last through the night and during the morning hours. Ideally the fast should then be broken at noon or shortly thereafter if you arise at 6-7 AM like most people. Afternoons and evenings are usually spent in the fed state."

My reasoning was:

"The recommendation for fasting through the earlier part of the day, as opposed to the latter part of the day, is for behavioral and social reasons. Most people simply find it easier to fast after awakening and prefer going to bed satiated. Afternoons and evenings are times to unwind and eat. For adherence reasons during dieting, I've also found that placing the feeding phase later in the day is ideal for most people."

This poses a dilemma for those who can only train in the early morning hours. If you're training first thing in the morning and finish at 7 AM it would call for a feeding phase of 7 AM to 3 PM. That's just a bit too early for my liking. Could you still do it and start the fast in the middle of the day? Sure. But generally speaking, this would compromise diet adherence for most people.

Seeing that most my clients wants to lose fat, optimal diet adherence is high on my priority list. I always aim for a diet design that is easy, painless and maintainable in the long term. So how have I solved this dilemma, knowing the importance of pre- and post-workout protein intake?

The protocol

Most clients maintain their 8-hour feeding-window between 12-2 pm and 8-10 pm on all days. For those doing early morning fasted training I have maintained that feeding window and added small feedings of BCAA pre- and post-workout.

Similar to fasted training, 10 g BCAA is ingested pre-workout. However, instead of initiating the feeding phase immediately post-workout, which is the standard protocol for regular fasted training, another 10 g BCAA is ingested two hours after the first. A third dose may then be ingested depending on when the client prefers his feeding-window.

Early morning fasted training

Here's a sample setup for a client that trains early in the morning and prefers the feeding phase at noon or later.

6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA.
6-7 AM: Training.
8 AM: 10 g BCAA.
10 AM: 10 g BCAA
12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window.
8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

For the sake of convenience, I recommend getting BCAA in the form of powder and not tabs. Simply mix 30 g of BCAA powder in a shake and drink one third of it every other hour starting 5-15 minutes pre-workout. Tabs are cheaper, but much more of a hassle (you're going to have to pop a lot of tabs). Check my supplements guide for specific brand recommendations.

Protein synthesis

I had some concerns before deciding on incorporating and recommending this protocol on a wider scale. After rigorous testing, these concerns have not proven to be valid.

My first concern was that results would be compromised if the post-workout meal was pushed back several hours. I haven't seen any trend, such as lack of progress or loss of strength and muscle mass, to indicate that this is the case. The results are on par with those obtained with the other protocols.

Consuming BCAAs every other hour through the fast is sufficient to keep protein synthesis stimulated and prevent protein breakdown. If protein intake is completely omitted, it would undoubtedly affect results negatively. Thus the compromise of ingesting BCAA pre- and post-workout through the fast, before the real post-workout meal, which is initiated at the usual time of the feeding phase.

Will we still derive the benefits from regular fasting if we consume small amounts of protein throughout the fast post-workout? Yes. If carbs are omitted, the increased insulin sensitivity will quickly bring back basal insulin to fasted state levels despite consuming 120 calories worth of fairly insulinogenic amino acids. The fasted state is almost fully maintained post-workout.

When the post-workout meal comes around is also when muscle protein synthesis is beginning to take off. Though muscle protein synthesis is acutely stimulated post-workout in response to resistance training and protein intake, studies show some latency in regards to elevation and peak. Protein synthesis starts to climb about 3-4 hours post-workout, reaches a peak at the 24-hour-mark and returns close to baseline values 36 hours post-workout (or 48 hours depending on who you ask; studies on this topic show slightly different results regarding length and peak of elevation). Even if you push back the post-workout meal a few hours, you will be in the fed state at a time when nutrient partitioning is optimized and muscle growth likely to occur.

By consuming small amounts of BCAA through the fasted state we are stimulating synthesis and halting breakdown. A few hours later, when protein synthesis is increasing, we enter the fed state. The latency seen with protein synthesis in response to training, and the fact that we have amino acids (BCAA) in circulation pre- and post-workout, goes a long way in explaining why clients following this protocol get equal results to those following other protocols.

Hunger and hypoglycemia

My second concern was that clients would be hungry or suffer bouts of exercise-induced hypoglycemia post-workout. This would compromise diet adherence and/or impair productivity during the fast and make the protocol worthless. Fortunately, this has not been proven to be the case.

For some it will feel unnatural to not eat directly post-workout. This is part of a learned response. After a training session we want to reward ourselves . Even if there is no real physiological need to do so immediately. If anything, high-intensity exercise in the fasted state tends to suppress appetite in the short-term and not increase it.

This is mirrored by my personal experience as well. If I train within the hour upon awakening, I still don't get hungry until the time I am used to eating - which may be 4-5 hours post-workout. Clients have reported the same.

There are no hypoglycemic episodes reported so far, but this was only a true concern of mine for those involved in fairly glycogen-demanding training such as CrossFit. Considering that there's a fair amount of liver glycogen available to maintain blood glucose levels during training after an overnight fast this is not so strange.

The only way I could imagine someone experiencing hypoglycemia post-workout, if a post-workout meal was delayed for several hours, would be after prolonged and strenuous training in combination with severe calorie or carbohydrate restriction. In such a case the training session would induce a substantial and acute energy deficit along with complete depletion of liver glycogen content (which would escalate protein breakdown and also increase the risk of hypoglycemia). I am not a fan of prolonged endurance training in the fasted state.

For others, hypoglycemia is not a concern. Even type 2 diabetics maintain blood glucose very well in the hours following fasted state training in spite of not eating post-workout. For a metabolically healthy individual, there is nothing to worry about.

BCAA vs whey

What's all this fuss about BCAA and could we not use another protein source such as whey protein? Strictly speaking, no. BCAA contains the three major amino acids intimately involved in activating muscle protein synthesis, including leucine which is the key player. Whey protein contains 25% BCAA. Other high-quality protein sources, such as meat, contain 17-18% BCAA. To get an equivalent amount of BCAAs into circulation during the fasted state would require 120-180 g protein from these sources. That's more than 500 calories (120 g protein plus tag-along carbs and fat), which is not far from a medium sized meal.

With BCAAs we are getting maximal benefits with regards to muscle protein synthesis for a minimal caloric load. The latter point being important to maintain the fasted state and to allow for a liberal 8-hour feeding window later in the day. "
Martin Berkhan

aenima83 · 23-01-2014, 06:14 PM

Per essere piu preciso:
6:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA
7 - allenamento
8:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA
10:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA (magari 10 gr per volta è abbastanza visto che lo prendo 3 volte)
12:45: primo pasto (piu' grande)
16:45: secondo pasto
20:45: terzo pasto
20:45 - 12:45: digiuno

quando non mi alleno uguale ma senza BCAA

che ne pensi?

Street · 24-01-2014, 10:05 AM

Approved!
Pesi sui 90kg vero? se si BCAA ok 10g
Come imposterai i pasti?
Per il WO ci sono pareri contrastanti,ma una fullbody 3/week incentrata sui movimenti base potrebbe essere la scelta giusta

aenima83 · 24-01-2014, 10:37 AM

Al momento 97.5 quindi un pò di sovrappeso.
Per quanto riguarda i pasti non sono sicuro ancora, devo fare il calcolo delle calorie giornaliere e poi vedere cosa mangiare e quando: credo che farò sicuramente i carboidrati nel pasto principale che poi sarebbe il primo.
Riguardo questo punto, con l'obiettivo di perdere massa grassa e, con l'allenamento, aumentare massa muscolare, devo impostare la mia dieta con le kcal di cui ho bisogno giornalmente o di piu' quando mi alleno e meno quando riposo?
Per il WO: attualmente sto facendo 4 esercizi con 3 o 4 serie per i gruppi muscolari principali (petto, dorso, gambe/spalle che sono bilanciate).
Prima facevo max peso e meno ripetizioni in modo piramidale (10-8-6-4) mentre ora sto facendo un pò meno peso ma max ripetizioni per favorire il massimo sforzo muscolare e quindi la crescita.

Street · 24-01-2014, 06:42 PM

Per l'allenamento sarebbe da fare un discorso a parte..sul forum spesso Doc consiglia un programma che sarebbe ottimo associato alla LG! cercalo magari

Per il discorso Kcal ti ho scritto tutto qualche post fa

newfit · 24-01-2014, 07:29 PM

aenima83 · 26-01-2014, 03:55 PM

Un'altra domanda. Riguardo i BCAA, Berkhan suggerisce dei siti, in particolare questo per l'Europa Amino Acids Supplements and Tablets | Predator Nutrition : BCAAs/EAAs
Tu quale integratore usi? Purple Wraath?
Usi altri integratori? Pensavo se fosse utile usare la creatina magari pre-WO insieme al BCAA, che ne dici?

Street · 27-01-2014, 09:59 AM

Non uso BCAA perchè non mi alleno a digiuno in questo periodo
Se li usassi prenderei gli AMINO IV della PES
Per la crea, visto che sei a stomaco vuoto, dovresti usarne una gia tamponata o tamponarla tu..
Puoi usarla anche post senza problemi per me

aenima83 · 28-01-2014, 12:50 PM

Dieta quasi pianificata, non credo userò BCAA almeno inizialmente, vorrei evitare integratori dopo essermi informato un pò meglio.

Ora passo al calcolo specifico delle Kcal per giorno e suddivisione, speriamo bene!

Street · 28-01-2014, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originariamente inviato da aenima83

Per essere piu preciso:
6:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA
7 - allenamento
8:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA
10:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA (magari 10 gr per volta è abbastanza visto che lo prendo 3 volte)
12:45: primo pasto (piu' grande)
16:45: secondo pasto
20:45: terzo pasto
20:45 - 12:45: digiuno

quando non mi alleno uguale ma senza BCAA

che ne pensi?

Se tieni questo pattern,secondo me meglio che li usi...

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	(#16)
Street All the Truth Member Messaggi: 887 Data registrazione: Dec 2010 Località: Furlè Età: 38	23-01-2014, 06:12 PM Se ti alleni alle 7 sulla carta,a me che sono ignorante,sembra una forzatura Ma dato che Berkhan sul sito propone quello schema con tanto di motivazione,io mi fiderei a occhi chiusi Riporto lo schema di cui si parla (con relativo spiegone) perchè magari questo 3d potrebbe servire a qualcun altro in futuro "My general position on the fasted phase is that it should last through the night and during the morning hours. Ideally the fast should then be broken at noon or shortly thereafter if you arise at 6-7 AM like most people. Afternoons and evenings are usually spent in the fed state." My reasoning was: "The recommendation for fasting through the earlier part of the day, as opposed to the latter part of the day, is for behavioral and social reasons. Most people simply find it easier to fast after awakening and prefer going to bed satiated. Afternoons and evenings are times to unwind and eat. For adherence reasons during dieting, I've also found that placing the feeding phase later in the day is ideal for most people." This poses a dilemma for those who can only train in the early morning hours. If you're training first thing in the morning and finish at 7 AM it would call for a feeding phase of 7 AM to 3 PM. That's just a bit too early for my liking. Could you still do it and start the fast in the middle of the day? Sure. But generally speaking, this would compromise diet adherence for most people. Seeing that most my clients wants to lose fat, optimal diet adherence is high on my priority list. I always aim for a diet design that is easy, painless and maintainable in the long term. So how have I solved this dilemma, knowing the importance of pre- and post-workout protein intake? The protocol Most clients maintain their 8-hour feeding-window between 12-2 pm and 8-10 pm on all days. For those doing early morning fasted training I have maintained that feeding window and added small feedings of BCAA pre- and post-workout. Similar to fasted training, 10 g BCAA is ingested pre-workout. However, instead of initiating the feeding phase immediately post-workout, which is the standard protocol for regular fasted training, another 10 g BCAA is ingested two hours after the first. A third dose may then be ingested depending on when the client prefers his feeding-window. Early morning fasted training Here's a sample setup for a client that trains early in the morning and prefers the feeding phase at noon or later. 6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA. 6-7 AM: Training. 8 AM: 10 g BCAA. 10 AM: 10 g BCAA 12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window. 8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast. For the sake of convenience, I recommend getting BCAA in the form of powder and not tabs. Simply mix 30 g of BCAA powder in a shake and drink one third of it every other hour starting 5-15 minutes pre-workout. Tabs are cheaper, but much more of a hassle (you're going to have to pop a lot of tabs). Check my supplements guide for specific brand recommendations. Protein synthesis I had some concerns before deciding on incorporating and recommending this protocol on a wider scale. After rigorous testing, these concerns have not proven to be valid. My first concern was that results would be compromised if the post-workout meal was pushed back several hours. I haven't seen any trend, such as lack of progress or loss of strength and muscle mass, to indicate that this is the case. The results are on par with those obtained with the other protocols. Consuming BCAAs every other hour through the fast is sufficient to keep protein synthesis stimulated and prevent protein breakdown. If protein intake is completely omitted, it would undoubtedly affect results negatively. Thus the compromise of ingesting BCAA pre- and post-workout through the fast, before the real post-workout meal, which is initiated at the usual time of the feeding phase. Will we still derive the benefits from regular fasting if we consume small amounts of protein throughout the fast post-workout? Yes. If carbs are omitted, the increased insulin sensitivity will quickly bring back basal insulin to fasted state levels despite consuming 120 calories worth of fairly insulinogenic amino acids. The fasted state is almost fully maintained post-workout. When the post-workout meal comes around is also when muscle protein synthesis is beginning to take off. Though muscle protein synthesis is acutely stimulated post-workout in response to resistance training and protein intake, studies show some latency in regards to elevation and peak. Protein synthesis starts to climb about 3-4 hours post-workout, reaches a peak at the 24-hour-mark and returns close to baseline values 36 hours post-workout (or 48 hours depending on who you ask; studies on this topic show slightly different results regarding length and peak of elevation). Even if you push back the post-workout meal a few hours, you will be in the fed state at a time when nutrient partitioning is optimized and muscle growth likely to occur. By consuming small amounts of BCAA through the fasted state we are stimulating synthesis and halting breakdown. A few hours later, when protein synthesis is increasing, we enter the fed state. The latency seen with protein synthesis in response to training, and the fact that we have amino acids (BCAA) in circulation pre- and post-workout, goes a long way in explaining why clients following this protocol get equal results to those following other protocols. Hunger and hypoglycemia My second concern was that clients would be hungry or suffer bouts of exercise-induced hypoglycemia post-workout. This would compromise diet adherence and/or impair productivity during the fast and make the protocol worthless. Fortunately, this has not been proven to be the case. For some it will feel unnatural to not eat directly post-workout. This is part of a learned response. After a training session we want to reward ourselves . Even if there is no real physiological need to do so immediately. If anything, high-intensity exercise in the fasted state tends to suppress appetite in the short-term and not increase it. This is mirrored by my personal experience as well. If I train within the hour upon awakening, I still don't get hungry until the time I am used to eating - which may be 4-5 hours post-workout. Clients have reported the same. There are no hypoglycemic episodes reported so far, but this was only a true concern of mine for those involved in fairly glycogen-demanding training such as CrossFit. Considering that there's a fair amount of liver glycogen available to maintain blood glucose levels during training after an overnight fast this is not so strange. The only way I could imagine someone experiencing hypoglycemia post-workout, if a post-workout meal was delayed for several hours, would be after prolonged and strenuous training in combination with severe calorie or carbohydrate restriction. In such a case the training session would induce a substantial and acute energy deficit along with complete depletion of liver glycogen content (which would escalate protein breakdown and also increase the risk of hypoglycemia). I am not a fan of prolonged endurance training in the fasted state. For others, hypoglycemia is not a concern. Even type 2 diabetics maintain blood glucose very well in the hours following fasted state training in spite of not eating post-workout. For a metabolically healthy individual, there is nothing to worry about. BCAA vs whey What's all this fuss about BCAA and could we not use another protein source such as whey protein? Strictly speaking, no. BCAA contains the three major amino acids intimately involved in activating muscle protein synthesis, including leucine which is the key player. Whey protein contains 25% BCAA. Other high-quality protein sources, such as meat, contain 17-18% BCAA. To get an equivalent amount of BCAAs into circulation during the fasted state would require 120-180 g protein from these sources. That's more than 500 calories (120 g protein plus tag-along carbs and fat), which is not far from a medium sized meal. With BCAAs we are getting maximal benefits with regards to muscle protein synthesis for a minimal caloric load. The latter point being important to maintain the fasted state and to allow for a liberal 8-hour feeding window later in the day. " Martin Berkhan

	(#17)
aenima83 One of Us Messaggi: 32 Data registrazione: Sep 2013 Età: 41	23-01-2014, 06:14 PM Per essere piu preciso: 6:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA 7 - allenamento 8:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA 10:45 - 10/20 gr BCAA (magari 10 gr per volta è abbastanza visto che lo prendo 3 volte) 12:45: primo pasto (piu' grande) 16:45: secondo pasto 20:45: terzo pasto 20:45 - 12:45: digiuno quando non mi alleno uguale ma senza BCAA che ne pensi?

	(#18)
Street All the Truth Member Messaggi: 887 Data registrazione: Dec 2010 Località: Furlè Età: 38	24-01-2014, 10:05 AM Approved! Pesi sui 90kg vero? se si BCAA ok 10g Come imposterai i pasti? Per il WO ci sono pareri contrastanti,ma una fullbody 3/week incentrata sui movimenti base potrebbe essere la scelta giusta

	(#19)
aenima83 One of Us Messaggi: 32 Data registrazione: Sep 2013 Età: 41	24-01-2014, 10:37 AM Al momento 97.5 quindi un pò di sovrappeso. Per quanto riguarda i pasti non sono sicuro ancora, devo fare il calcolo delle calorie giornaliere e poi vedere cosa mangiare e quando: credo che farò sicuramente i carboidrati nel pasto principale che poi sarebbe il primo. Riguardo questo punto, con l'obiettivo di perdere massa grassa e, con l'allenamento, aumentare massa muscolare, devo impostare la mia dieta con le kcal di cui ho bisogno giornalmente o di piu' quando mi alleno e meno quando riposo? Per il WO: attualmente sto facendo 4 esercizi con 3 o 4 serie per i gruppi muscolari principali (petto, dorso, gambe/spalle che sono bilanciate). Prima facevo max peso e meno ripetizioni in modo piramidale (10-8-6-4) mentre ora sto facendo un pò meno peso ma max ripetizioni per favorire il massimo sforzo muscolare e quindi la crescita.

	(#20)
Street All the Truth Member Messaggi: 887 Data registrazione: Dec 2010 Località: Furlè Età: 38	24-01-2014, 06:42 PM Per l'allenamento sarebbe da fare un discorso a parte..sul forum spesso Doc consiglia un programma che sarebbe ottimo associato alla LG! cercalo magari Per il discorso Kcal ti ho scritto tutto qualche post fa

	(#21)
newfit All the Truth Member Messaggi: 2,127 Data registrazione: Jun 2011	24-01-2014, 07:29 PM

	(#22)
aenima83 One of Us Messaggi: 32 Data registrazione: Sep 2013 Età: 41	26-01-2014, 03:55 PM Un'altra domanda. Riguardo i BCAA, Berkhan suggerisce dei siti, in particolare questo per l'Europa Amino Acids Supplements and Tablets \| Predator Nutrition : BCAAs/EAAs Tu quale integratore usi? Purple Wraath? Usi altri integratori? Pensavo se fosse utile usare la creatina magari pre-WO insieme al BCAA, che ne dici?

	(#23)
Street All the Truth Member Messaggi: 887 Data registrazione: Dec 2010 Località: Furlè Età: 38	27-01-2014, 09:59 AM Non uso BCAA perchè non mi alleno a digiuno in questo periodo Se li usassi prenderei gli AMINO IV della PES Per la crea, visto che sei a stomaco vuoto, dovresti usarne una gia tamponata o tamponarla tu.. Puoi usarla anche post senza problemi per me

	(#24)
aenima83 One of Us Messaggi: 32 Data registrazione: Sep 2013 Età: 41	28-01-2014, 12:50 PM Dieta quasi pianificata, non credo userò BCAA almeno inizialmente, vorrei evitare integratori dopo essermi informato un pò meglio. Ora passo al calcolo specifico delle Kcal per giorno e suddivisione, speriamo bene!